[2020-02-09 20:01] <Pretorian> <annual meeting start>
[2020-02-09 20:01] <Pretorian> Hi, and welcome to the sixth official annual meeting for the Direct Connect Network Foundation.
[2020-02-09 20:01] <Pretorian> I am the interim supervisor of the meeting until the meeting supervisor has been elected.
[2020-02-09 20:01] <Pretorian> All who are here for today's meeting, please write now with your registered member name (or future registered member name). All those who are here agrees on the by-laws.
[2020-02-09 20:01] <Pretorian> Fredrik Ullner / Pretorian
[2020-02-09 20:01] <cologic> cologic / cologic
[2020-02-09 20:01] <Crise> Crise
[2020-02-09 20:01] <Dexo> Dexo
[2020-02-09 20:02] <Pretorian> poy?
[2020-02-09 20:02] <Kcchouette> hello
[2020-02-09 20:02] <poy> poy
[2020-02-09 20:02] <Kcchouette> Kchouette
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Pretorian> The first order of business is electing a meeting supervisor and a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting supervisor or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Pretorian> I nominate myself, Pretorian.
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Pretorian> (you can do +1/-1)
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:03] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:03] <poy> +1 for Pretorian
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Pretorian> There have been one nomination, for Pretorian to be voted supervisor for this meeting.
[2020-02-09 20:03] <Pretorian> 6 votes for Pretorian
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Pretorian> The second order of business is electing a meeting secretary. Those who wishes to be the meeting secretary or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Pretorian> I nominate Crise.
[2020-02-09 20:04] * Delion here
[2020-02-09 20:04] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Crise> +-1 :)
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:04] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Delion> +1
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Pretorian> There have been one nomination, for Crise to be voted secretary for this meeting.
[2020-02-09 20:04] <Pretorian> The supervisor for this meeting is Pretorian. The secretary for this meeting is Crise.
[2020-02-09 20:05] <Pretorian> I have now been elected supervisor, and will continue on with the order of business as set forth by the by-laws of DCNF.
[2020-02-09 20:05] <Pretorian> Second item is establishing voting length in time for each type of vote during the meeting. Specify now a voting length. If all members vote the same before the time elapse, thereby shortening the time for a vote.
[2020-02-09 20:05] <Pretorian> I nominate 2 minutes for each vote.
[2020-02-09 20:05] <Kcchouette> 4 minutes
[2020-02-09 20:06] <poy> voting happens after actual discussion which can last longer - 2 minutes are ok by me.
[2020-02-09 20:06] <Crise> likewise, considering the number of people voting 2 minutes seems sufficient
[2020-02-09 20:06] <Pretorian> Yes, typically these voting times are for the formalia.
[2020-02-09 20:07] <cologic> Yes, I agree with poy. The actual voting shouldn't have to be interleaved with discussion.
[2020-02-09 20:07] <Pretorian> 2 minutes shall be used henceforth in this meeting. The record shall show that 4 minutes was proposed.
[2020-02-09 20:08] <Pretorian> Item 3 in the by-laws: choosing vote counter and meeting protocol adjuster. Those who wishes to be the meeting vote counter or wish to nominate someone, write now a name.
[2020-02-09 20:08] <Pretorian> I nominate cologic.
[2020-02-09 20:08] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:08] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:08] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:08] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:08] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:08] <cologic> 6 votes for cologic.
[2020-02-09 20:09] <cologic> (Delion pending)
[2020-02-09 20:09] <Pretorian> Exactly. :P
[2020-02-09 20:09] <Crise> For the protocol adjuster, for the benefit of the person nominated can we have description of the role... since last year's protocol is still not technically adjusted
[2020-02-09 20:09] <Pretorian> (Hence why it'simportant to have short times.)
[2020-02-09 20:09] <Delion>  +1
[2020-02-09 20:09] <cologic> 7 votes for cologic.
[2020-02-09 20:10] <Pretorian> The protocol adjuster's role is to basically read the protocol written by the secretary and check if everything is correct or not.
[2020-02-09 20:10] <Pretorian> Basically proof read.
[2020-02-09 20:10] <Pretorian> They 'adjust' the meeting protocol.
[2020-02-09 20:10] <Pretorian> cologic is elected vote counter. cologic shall for the continuation of this meeting count all votes.
[2020-02-09 20:10] <Crise> Thank you, to be noted meetings are recorded verbatim by more than one person (logs), so this is bit of a formality
[2020-02-09 20:10] <Pretorian> Those who wishes to be the meeting protocol adjuster or wish to nominate someone, write now a name. See above for the role of the adjuster.
[2020-02-09 20:11] <Pretorian> Adjuster cannot not be the supervisor or the secretary.
[2020-02-09 20:11] <Pretorian> I nominate poy.
[2020-02-09 20:12] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:12] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:12] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:12] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:12] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:12] <Delion>  +1
[2020-02-09 20:12] <cologic> 7 votes for poy
[2020-02-09 20:12] <Pretorian> poy is elected meeting protocol adjuster.
[2020-02-09 20:12] <Pretorian> Item 4 in the by-laws: has the meeting been announced correctly and fairly? Even though the meeting was announced a month later than intended.
[2020-02-09 20:12] <Pretorian> yes
[2020-02-09 20:13] <Crise> agreed
[2020-02-09 20:13] <poy> yes
[2020-02-09 20:13] <Dexo> yes
[2020-02-09 20:13] <cologic> yes
[2020-02-09 20:13] <Kcchouette> yes
[2020-02-09 20:13] <Delion>  yes
[2020-02-09 20:13] <cologic> 7 votes for yes
[2020-02-09 20:13] <Pretorian> Item 5 in the by-laws: Meeting items shall be established here. State your intended meeting items that will discussed and possibly voted on in item 15.
[2020-02-09 20:13] <Pretorian> Pretorian-1: Review of last year's items and the organization's management of them
[2020-02-09 20:14] <Pretorian> Pretorian-2: Changing bylaws
[2020-02-09 20:14] <Pretorian> I will give a few minutes for people to post the headline of their item and we will go through them each.
[2020-02-09 20:14] <Pretorian> (should've really posted my own after that note)
[2020-02-09 20:15] <Kcchouette> Kcchouette-1 : updating some software dcnf-related (eg phpbb to discourse)
[2020-02-09 20:15] <Dexo> Dexo-1: Discuss migration of the forum (same as Kcc-1).
Dexo-2: ALPN implementation status.
[2020-02-09 20:15] <Crise> Crise-1 The fate of additional scheduled meetings (quarterly or otherwise)
[2020-02-09 20:16] <Crise> Crise-2 Hub (this one) certificate
[2020-02-09 20:16] <poy> poy-1) Setting up a forge for current projects.
[2020-02-09 20:16] <Kcchouette> yes, nice ↑
[2020-02-09 20:16] <Delion> Delion-1 Did you recieve my DCNF member request? :)
[2020-02-09 20:16] <poy> poy-2) Getting the word out so other projects join us! List projects we should invite.
[2020-02-09 20:16] <Dexo> Dexo-3: Protocol spec hosting, and optionally hosting of other projects.
[2020-02-09 20:17] <Pretorian> Last year we discussed the above items -now-, but technically it's supposed to be on item 15 in the bylaws. Do people wish to discuss them now or later?
[2020-02-09 20:17] <Crise> Crise-3 dedicated emails for organization business... as opposed to forwarding
[2020-02-09 20:17] <Pretorian> Delion: Apologies, yes, it's registered!
[2020-02-09 20:17] <Delion> Pretorian: good)
[2020-02-09 20:18] <Dexo> +1 on discussing now
[2020-02-09 20:18] <poy> let's proceed in the right order, clear out formalities first then discuss.
[2020-02-09 20:18] <Crise> I agree with poy easier for me
[2020-02-09 20:18] <Crise> (I have to write the protocol document the closer to the template it is the easier it will be)
[2020-02-09 20:18] <Dexo> makes sense to clear formalities, changing vote for "in order"
[2020-02-09 20:19] <cologic> 3 votes on in-order discussion
[2020-02-09 20:19] <Pretorian> Ok, let's do so.
[2020-02-09 20:19] <Pretorian> Item 6 in the by-laws:
a) Announce the board's organization story for the last year.
b) Announce the accounting and economic state for the last year.
[2020-02-09 20:19] <Delion> in order
[2020-02-09 20:20] <cologic> 4 votes
[2020-02-09 20:20] <Pretorian> Regarding a) this will be discussed/provided in my Pretorian-1
[2020-02-09 20:20] <Pretorian> Regarding item B, the following is the financial state.
[2020-02-09 20:20] <Pretorian> The organization has received money trough PayPal and in 2020-01-12 16:39 (CET), the current balance was 162.22 EUR (€).
There have been one outgoing purchases, and that was of the OVH server that the server the organization uses. The purchase was for 303.26 EUR (€). Still not sure why the domain's cost is but we still have the domain so...
The total amount of money the organization has been in control over this year was therefore 162.22+303.26=465.48 EUR (€). The balance of 2018 was 214.41 EUR (€). The total amount the organization has accumulated this year was therefore 251.07 EUR (€).
The organization has received its money through membership fees and donations. 
The information received from the Swedish taxation service is that there are no outstanding items to DCNF's submission for 2019 (finance year 2018). (0 € in tax etc) It is expected that this will also be true for the finance year 2019.
[2020-02-09 20:20] <Pretorian> I have nothing further to add to this, so I think that concludes item 6, unless other board members (Crise and cologic) have anything additional to add.
[2020-02-09 20:20] <cologic> I have nothing to add.
[2020-02-09 20:21] <Pretorian> (or if others have comments, I'll let a few minutes to pass so people can read)
[2020-02-09 20:21] <Kcchouette> what's the spec of the ovh server?
[2020-02-09 20:21] <Pretorian> And per Crise inevitable comment, yes the domain should've been switched over to the org, don't know why.
[2020-02-09 20:21] <Crise> :)
[2020-02-09 20:22] <Pretorian> Kcchouette: I can't tell you now, because I don't know off hand, but can provide you later.
[2020-02-09 20:22] <Crise> The server is over specced for what it is currently used for though
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Pretorian> Continuing, speak up if anyone have any comments.
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Pretorian> Item 7 in the by-laws: regarding auditor, the board has internally audited purchases and incoming transactions and due to the low amount of outgoing purchases (one, 1), an external auditor has not deemed necessary.
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Pretorian> Item 8 in the by-laws: discharing the board of responsibility.
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Pretorian> (Discharge = yes, means that the board should be replaced altogether).
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Pretorian> no
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Crise> no need
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Dexo> no
[2020-02-09 20:23] <poy> no
[2020-02-09 20:23] <cologic> no
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Kcchouette> no
[2020-02-09 20:23] <Delion>  no
[2020-02-09 20:24] <cologic> 7 votes for not replacing the board
[2020-02-09 20:24] <Pretorian> Item 9 in the by-laws: the member fees.
[2020-02-09 20:24] <Pretorian> State now if you wish to propose a different amount, than the current 10 Euros.
[2020-02-09 20:24] <Pretorian> €10 is fine by me. Annoying thing is that Paypal takes a cut.
[2020-02-09 20:24] <Kcchouette> how many members does we have?
[2020-02-09 20:24] <Crise> 10 € is fine, are there viable alternatives to paypal?
[2020-02-09 20:24] <Dexo> And what is the cut currently?
[2020-02-09 20:24] <Kcchouette> Even using donation, paypal takes something?
[2020-02-09 20:25] <Delion> Dexo: the cut may vary. There is 2 payment options.
[2020-02-09 20:25] <Kcchouette> librepay maybe?
[2020-02-09 20:25] <Pretorian> Kcchouette: We have 6 member currently with all present here, with hopefully one more (Dexo).
[2020-02-09 20:25] <Dexo> (already sent a membership fee 1 min before the meeting)
[2020-02-09 20:26] <Crise> they always take a cut and potentially an exchange fee from the person donating depending on their choices
[2020-02-09 20:26] <Pretorian> Paypal takes 0.89 EUR or something similar
[2020-02-09 20:26] <Pretorian> It depends on how much you donate.
[2020-02-09 20:26] <Pretorian> Ah, nice Dexo! :)
[2020-02-09 20:27] <Pretorian> I don't know of any other alternatives, the thing is that Paypal is "trusted" by the general public.
[2020-02-09 20:27] <Kcchouette> mmh, that mean on 303€, only 70€ come from meber fee?
[2020-02-09 20:27] <Pretorian> Correct.
[2020-02-09 20:27] <Pretorian> The rest are donations.
[2020-02-09 20:27] <Kcchouette> *member
[2020-02-09 20:27] <Delion> It also depends with what currency your credit card charged actually. Mine in rubles so...
[2020-02-09 20:28] <Delion> *mine is with rubles
[2020-02-09 20:28] <Pretorian> Yes. There's a ton of factors.
[2020-02-09 20:28] <Kcchouette> It's a bit sad that it's not self-sufficient, but I'll follow you; keep 10€
[2020-02-09 20:28] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:29] <poy> yes although the math doesn't add up, better keep 10 €, low enough for newcomers.
[2020-02-09 20:29] <Delion> 10 euros is OK for me too
[2020-02-09 20:29] <Crise> If there is a payment processor that is viable as an alternative to paypal it may be worth considering as an option alongside paypal? unless that complicates things for Pretorian
[2020-02-09 20:30] <cologic> 10 euros is fine by me
[2020-02-09 20:30] <Pretorian> Mostly complicates keeping track, other than that it's no worry to have multiple ones.
[2020-02-09 20:30] <skupino> to calculate that for the Russians 10 euros is a lot of money.
[2020-02-09 20:30] <Crise> is the organization having an actual bank account not an option?
[2020-02-09 20:30] <cologic> (7 votes for keeping the fee at 10€)
[2020-02-09 20:31] <Kcchouette> bank transfer is sometimes more costly tbh
[2020-02-09 20:31] <Crise> fair
[2020-02-09 20:31] <Pretorian> I had a meeting with Swedbank, one of the Sweden's largest banks, when the organization was started and there was an issue that we couldn't control from where donations and membership fees could come from.
[2020-02-09 20:31] <cologic> Bank transfer within Europe is generally quite inexpensive.
[2020-02-09 20:31] <Pretorian> A meeting where they had two lawyers there to talk with me.
[2020-02-09 20:32] <Delion> skupino: not really. Say, it's like typical ISP payment.
[2020-02-09 20:32] <Pretorian> Utterly insane when the organization is very small.
[2020-02-09 20:32] <cologic> Yes, I didn't understand then and still don't understand how that's not a completely generic issue with any organization accepting donations.
[2020-02-09 20:32] <Pretorian> Plus, a bank account costs money to have.
[2020-02-09 20:32] <Crise> I mean if the fees go through a payment processor and then to a bank account wouldn't it be fine?
[2020-02-09 20:32] <cologic> Is the concern that there's not a documented internal DCNF mechanism for auditing received donations based on where they're from and returning them if necessary?
[2020-02-09 20:33] <Pretorian> They also had to bring in another guy to explain the DCNF bylaws because the clerk didn't know English enough (wtf?).
[2020-02-09 20:33] <Crise> I am not suggesting direct bank transfers per se just an account to accumulate donations from different payment processors
[2020-02-09 20:33] <Pretorian> I have no idea, cologic. 
[2020-02-09 20:33] <skupino> Delion I say for the currency, I earn 1700 euros per month in Italy, you earn about 300 euros in Russia, the difference is too much but we live the same
[2020-02-09 20:33] <Pretorian> If person A in country X donates to the organization bank, through person A's bank, then those two banks should have all necessary verification.
[2020-02-09 20:34] <cologic> Yes, that's what existing KYC/AML regulations and laws, already implemented by financial institutions, should enforce.
[2020-02-09 20:34] <Pretorian> So I am up for having a different payment processor and/or donation accumation storage if someone has a suggestion I'm all for it.
[2020-02-09 20:34] <Pretorian> In the meantime I think we can continue as we aren't going to beat the banks on administration bullshit.
[2020-02-09 20:35] <Crise> we can get back to this later
[2020-02-09 20:35] <Pretorian> Yes
[2020-02-09 20:35] <Pretorian> Item 10 in the by-laws: Establishment of eventual plan for the organization and treatment of the budget for the coming year.
[2020-02-09 20:35] <Pretorian> So basically the inital plan is for the OVH server and the domain costs. OVH server is, as above around 300 € and domain is 10€ I think.
[2020-02-09 20:35] <Pretorian> Any other costs are not forseen at this time.
[2020-02-09 20:35] <Pretorian> Cue Crise's comment that the server is not utilized appropriately.
[2020-02-09 20:35] <Crise> :D
[2020-02-09 20:36] <Delion> skupino: depends on state province ;)
[2020-02-09 20:36] <Kcchouette> I have dcnf.io, still thinking of killing it?
[2020-02-09 20:36] <Pretorian> I guess what haven't been done previously is whether people feel that the organization should spend money on something else? Or maybe we can take this in item 15 if people want to.
[2020-02-09 20:36] <skupino> Pretorian my suggestion is that 1 of you must have a rechargeable credit card, and your donations are put into the card
[2020-02-09 20:37] <Pretorian> Let's move on.
[2020-02-09 20:37] <Pretorian> Item 11 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period.
[2020-02-09 20:37] <Pretorian> (say a person's name to NOMINATE them, then we'll vote on it)
[2020-02-09 20:37] <Pretorian> Pretorian
[2020-02-09 20:37] <Pretorian> Crise
[2020-02-09 20:37] <Pretorian> cologic
[2020-02-09 20:37] <Kcchouette> Dexo
[2020-02-09 20:38] <Pretorian> ** SMALL NOTE: At least two thirds of the board need to be EU citizens. EU law.
[2020-02-09 20:38] <Kcchouette> ho many people should have the board?
[2020-02-09 20:38] <Kcchouette> *how
[2020-02-09 20:38] <Pretorian> Minimum 3 maximum 4. 
[2020-02-09 20:38] <Crise> (by all means if people want to get involved pleace do, we need stand in members for the board)
[2020-02-09 20:38] <Kcchouette> and who is not EU?
[2020-02-09 20:39] <Dexo> (as a note, I'm not a EU citizen, only a resident)
[2020-02-09 20:39] <Pretorian> cologic is not a EU citizen.
[2020-02-09 20:39] <Pretorian> Applies to the standard board, so basically 2 out of 3 people.
[2020-02-09 20:39] <poy> Kcchouette
[2020-02-09 20:39] <Delion> Kcchouette
[2020-02-09 20:39] <skupino> Kcchouette = English = No EU
[2020-02-09 20:40] <skupino> LOL
[2020-02-09 20:40] <Kcchouette> lol I'm EU
[2020-02-09 20:40] <Delion> funny
[2020-02-09 20:40] <Pretorian> Kcchouette, Pretorian, cologic, Dexo, and Crise are nominated (others may continue to be nominated). 
[2020-02-09 20:41] <Pretorian> Going to start the voting process.
[2020-02-09 20:41] <Pretorian> If you wish for Pretorian to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2020-02-09 20:41] <Pretorian> +1
[2020-02-09 20:41] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:41] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:41] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:41] <Delion>  +1
[2020-02-09 20:41] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:41] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:42] <cologic> 7 votes for Pretorian to be elected to the board
[2020-02-09 20:42] <Pretorian> Pretorian is elected to the board.
[2020-02-09 20:42] <Pretorian> If you wish for cologic to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2020-02-09 20:42] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:42] <Delion>  +1
[2020-02-09 20:42] <Kcchouette> -1
[2020-02-09 20:42] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:42] <Pretorian> +1
[2020-02-09 20:42] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:43] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:43] <Pretorian> Apoligies everyone, the board have NO limit on members.
[2020-02-09 20:43] <cologic> 6 votes for and 1 vote against cologic being elected to the board
[2020-02-09 20:43] <Pretorian> Misread the bylaw. <https://www.dcbase.org/bylaws>
[2020-02-09 20:43] <Pretorian> cologic is elected to the board.
[2020-02-09 20:43] <Pretorian> If you wish for Crise to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2020-02-09 20:43] <Pretorian> +1
[2020-02-09 20:43] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Delion>  +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <cologic> 7 votes for Crise to be elected to the board
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Pretorian> Crise is elected to the board.
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Pretorian> If you wish for Kcchouette to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no. 
[2020-02-09 20:44] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Pretorian> +1, why not :)
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Delion>  +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:44] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:45] <cologic> -1 (I'll be reciprocal?)
[2020-02-09 20:45] <Pretorian> Hehe
[2020-02-09 20:45] <Kcchouette> I though it was 3 people
[2020-02-09 20:45] <Kcchouette> but right :
[2020-02-09 20:45] <Kcchouette> :)
[2020-02-09 20:45] <Pretorian> "The board shall contain at least three (3) board members and at least one (1) stand-in board member. Members (and stand-ins) in the board shall be decided at the annual organization meetings."
[2020-02-09 20:45] <cologic> 6 votes for and 1 vote against Kcchouette being elected to the board
[2020-02-09 20:46] <Pretorian> "at least three (3) board"
[2020-02-09 20:46] <Pretorian> Kcchouette is elected to the board.
[2020-02-09 20:46] <Pretorian> If you wish for Dexo to be elected in the board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2020-02-09 20:46] <Delion> congrats
[2020-02-09 20:46] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:46] <Delion>  -1
[2020-02-09 20:46] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:46] <Dexo> +1, if non-EU is ok
[2020-02-09 20:47] <Pretorian> It may be "majority" of which I hope we are?
[2020-02-09 20:47] <Crise> abstain (don't want to do math re board having enough EU citizens)
[2020-02-09 20:48] <Pretorian> Kcchouette: what EU country are you a citizen of?
[2020-02-09 20:48] <Kcchouette> France
[2020-02-09 20:48] <cologic> Yeah, I'm not sure I understand the EU mechanics well enough
[2020-02-09 20:48] <cologic> But, sure, +1
[2020-02-09 20:48] <Crise> what the heck, +1
[2020-02-09 20:48] <Dexo> thanks :)
[2020-02-09 20:49] <Pretorian> I can go with +1 too if y'all are like that :)
[2020-02-09 20:49] <Pretorian> I can't say you get a lot of free stuff with the board membership... o_O
[2020-02-09 20:49] <cologic> 6 votes for and 1 vote against Dexo being elected to the board
[2020-02-09 20:49] <Pretorian> Dexo is elected to the board.
[2020-02-09 20:49] <Delion> cookies?..
[2020-02-09 20:50] <Crise> I am still hoping for DCNF T-shirt :P
[2020-02-09 20:50] <Pretorian> The board is now complete and consist of Pretorian, Crise, cologic, Kcchouette and Dexo.
[2020-02-09 20:50] <Pretorian> Item 13 in the by-laws: those who wish to be part of the stand-in board or if you wish to nominate someone else, please write a name for nomination. Each person nominated will have their own voting period.
[2020-02-09 20:50] <Pretorian> poy
[2020-02-09 20:50] <poy> Delion
[2020-02-09 20:50] <Crise> re cookies: just visit the site and it wil set some for you
[2020-02-09 20:50] <Delion> Crise: xD
[2020-02-09 20:51] <Pretorian> If you wish for poy to be elected in the supplementary board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2020-02-09 20:51] <Pretorian> +1
[2020-02-09 20:51] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 20:51] <cologic> +1
[2020-02-09 20:51] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 20:51] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 20:51] <poy> 0
[2020-02-09 20:51] <Delion>  +1
[2020-02-09 20:52] <cologic> 6 votes for poy being on the supplementary board and one abstention.
[2020-02-09 20:52] <Pretorian> poy is elected to the supplementary board.
[2020-02-09 20:52] <Pretorian> If you wish for Delion to be elected in the supplementary board, write his name or yes or +1. If you do not, write -1 or no.
[2020-02-09 20:52] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 20:52] <Pretorian> +1 if Delion wants to, -1 if Delion doesn't want to.
[2020-02-09 20:53] <Delion> noo
[2020-02-09 20:53] <Delion>  -1
[2020-02-09 20:53] <Dexo> -1 then :)
[2020-02-09 20:53] <poy> ok nvm. :P
[2020-02-09 20:53] <cologic> (resolving Pretorian's vote to -1)
[2020-02-09 20:53] <Kcchouette> abstain
[2020-02-09 20:53] <Crise> -1, as per the persons wishes
[2020-02-09 20:53] <poy> -1
[2020-02-09 20:54] <cologic> 0 votes for, 4 votes against, and one abstention for Delion to be on the supplementary board
[2020-02-09 20:54] <Pretorian> Delion is not elected to the supplementary board.
[2020-02-09 20:54] <Delion> at least I have cookies :D
[2020-02-09 20:54] <Delion> and the cat
[2020-02-09 20:55] <skupino> Delion, you go clean the dishes
[2020-02-09 20:55] <Pretorian> Item 15 in the by-laws:Treatment of the board suggestions and motions.
[2020-02-09 20:55] <skupino> LOL
[2020-02-09 20:55] <Pretorian> This goes back to the previous list, hang on.
[2020-02-09 20:57] <Delion> skupino: make a good dinner first: https://prnt.sc/qzu0vk
[2020-02-09 20:57] <Pretorian> Pretorian-1) Review of last year's items and the organization's management of them
Pretorian-2) Changing bylaws
Kcchouette-1) updating some software dcnf-related (eg phpbb to discourse)
Dexo-2) ALPN implementation status.
Crise-1) The fate of additional scheduled meetings (quarterly or otherwise)
Crise-2) Hub (this one) certificate
poy-1) Setting up a forge for current projects.
poy-2) Getting the word out so other projects join us! List projects we should invite.
Dexo-3) Protocol spec hosting, and optionally hosting of other projects.
[2020-02-09 20:58] <Pretorian> Pretorian-1) Review of last year's items and the organization's management of them

So there were a bunch of various items, such as GSuite etc.
[2020-02-09 20:58] <Pretorian> However, none have really been worked on.
[2020-02-09 20:58] <Crise> Pretorian you are missing Crise-3 above
[2020-02-09 20:59] <Delion> oh, GSuite...I'm running it with my own domain
[2020-02-09 20:59] <Kcchouette> I'm against google-related thing :)
[2020-02-09 20:59] <Pretorian> Whoops
[2020-02-09 20:59] <Pretorian> Crise-3) dedicated emails for organization business... as opposed to forwarding
[2020-02-09 21:00] <Crise> Kcchouette: I am open to free alternatives that don't involve running our own mail server...
[2020-02-09 21:00] <Pretorian> I think most of the last year items had their fair share of discussion, and since we haven't really moved toward them... I don't want to say "skip" but we don't really need to re-hash the same discussion again.
[2020-02-09 21:00] <Kcchouette> mailbox.org Crise
[2020-02-09 21:00] <poy> can we discuss this when Crise-3 comes up please. ^^
[2020-02-09 21:00] <Crise> poy: agreed
[2020-02-09 21:01] <Pretorian> So I'm gonna go ahead and move on if that's all right and just address this year's items.
[2020-02-09 21:01] <Pretorian> We can take up an item later anyway.
[2020-02-09 21:01] <Pretorian> Let's move on.
[2020-02-09 21:02] <Pretorian> Pretorian-2) Changing bylaws
[2020-02-09 21:02] <Pretorian> Last year we officially voted to change one of the bylaws, See the first item at <https://forum.dcbase.org/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=1481>
[2020-02-09 21:03] <Pretorian> I'm just going to post what I wrote last year because we need to annual meeting votes.
[2020-02-09 21:03] <Pretorian> [2019-02-10 20:19] <Pretorian> Change bylaws (https://www.dcbase.org/bylaws) to state the correct municipality in Sweden (since I have moved). This is basically just a formality but needs to be done.
Current phrasing: The organization is located in Sollentuna, Sweden.
Proposed phrasing: The organization is located in Hässleholm, Sweden.
To change bylaws there need to be two separate annual meetings (or extra meetings) so it won't take into effect immediately.
- [2019-02-10 20:19] <Pretorian> The organization is registered in a particular municipality in Sweden, previously Sollentuna.
- [2019-02-10 20:20] <Pretorian> Due to Sweden's structure and how it organizises organizations, it is required to file a change with the associated government agencies when an organization moves.
- [2019-02-10 20:20] <Pretorian> However, because the bylaws specifically state the municipality (another requirement in Swedish law), we need to change the bylaws to reflect the new location (Hässleholm).
- [2019-02-10 20:21] <Pretorian> This change is basically a formality but one I want to do to ensure that the organization's bylaws are accurate and its information.
- [2019-02-10 20:21] <Pretorian> To change any part of the bylaws TWO annual meetings needs to be held.
- [2019-02-10 20:21] <Pretorian> However, due to the nature of the change, I don't think we need to "rush" this change (e.g. through an extra annual meeting) so the next annual meeting will simply confirm the change.
- [2019-02-10 20:21] <Pretorian> I.e., after this meeting/decision, the bylaws WILL NOT change automatically.
- [2019-02-10 20:22] <Pretorian> It is not until the SECOND approval of the bylaws that they change.
- [2019-02-10 20:22] <Pretorian> Now, it is required that TWO THIRDS (2/3) of members (or future members) vote YES to this change.
[2020-02-09 21:03] <poy> ok for this change.
[2020-02-09 21:03] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 21:03] <Kcchouette> hasn't it been already voted?
[2020-02-09 21:03] <cologic> I mean, +1
[2020-02-09 21:03] <Pretorian> Yes - once, but needs to be twice.
[2020-02-09 21:04] <Kcchouette> oh, ok;+1
[2020-02-09 21:04] <Crise> it is basically required change so yes from me, +1
[2020-02-09 21:04] <Pretorian> +1 from me.
[2020-02-09 21:04] <Pretorian> Basically it's because I moved in 2018. 
[2020-02-09 21:05] <cologic> (6 votes, pending Delion)
[2020-02-09 21:05] <Delion> need to read carefully, so 0
[2020-02-09 21:06] <cologic> Okay, 6 votes for changing organization from Sollentuna, Sweden to Hässleholm, Sweden and 1 abstention.
[2020-02-09 21:07] <Pretorian> The organization's bylaw is now changed. I will make sure the new bylaws will be updated on the website.
[2020-02-09 21:07] <Crise> The cliffnote of the bylaw changes: -Sollentuna +Hässleholm (literally search and replace)
[2020-02-09 21:07] <Pretorian> Yes.
[2020-02-09 21:07] <Pretorian> Or if you wanna do it, Crise.
[2020-02-09 21:07] <Delion> I mean the whole topic (:
[2020-02-09 21:08] <Crise> I don't mind doing it
[2020-02-09 21:08] <Pretorian> Delion: The bylaws <https://www.dcbase.org/bylaws> are the governing rules of the organization.
[2020-02-09 21:08] <Crise> Delion: it is required by goverment and the bylaws need to reflect correct information
[2020-02-09 21:09] <Pretorian> They are registered with the government, and as such I need to file to have them updated.
[2020-02-09 21:09] <Crise> (govt. here being swedish one)
[2020-02-09 21:09] <Kcchouette> In France, we do not write in hard the address, just saying "the address can be change a anytime by the majority of the meber"
[2020-02-09 21:09] <Delion> I see now
[2020-02-09 21:10] <Pretorian> Typically organizations in Sweden write their "head location" which need to be a physical place.
[2020-02-09 21:10] <Pretorian> The issue is that, well, most organizations have an actual physical place.
[2020-02-09 21:10] <Pretorian> We don't.
[2020-02-09 21:10] <Pretorian> So we use my personal address.
[2020-02-09 21:11] <Pretorian> (By place, the bylaws need to state the municipality.)
[2020-02-09 21:11] <Pretorian> The law says that the bylaws must contain that information.
[2020-02-09 21:12] <Pretorian> Let's move on.
[2020-02-09 21:12] <Pretorian> Kcchouette/Dexo-1) updating some software dcnf-related (eg phpbb to discourse)
[2020-02-09 21:12] <Pretorian> Not sure who wants to go first.
[2020-02-09 21:12] <Dexo> Kcc?
[2020-02-09 21:12] <Dexo> (or I can go, if you want)
[2020-02-09 21:13] <Kcchouette> yes go
[2020-02-09 21:13] <skupino> go go
[2020-02-09 21:13] <Dexo> So basically we tested the Discourse forum as the alternative for the phpBB
[2020-02-09 21:13] <Crise> I am open to using discourse, the only thing in regards to it that I don't like is it "recommends" the use of rather large swap partition
[2020-02-09 21:14] <Dexo> Can it be avoided though?
[2020-02-09 21:14] <Kcchouette> I didn't even read that, I use vpn with no swap
[2020-02-09 21:14] <Kcchouette> *vps
[2020-02-09 21:14] <Dexo> The one running on VPS was pretty fast I would say. I haven't nocided any lags.
[2020-02-09 21:15] <Dexo> So should be okay.
[2020-02-09 21:15] <Crise> VPS with swap would be a big no no anyways, since it will affect the underlying hardware
[2020-02-09 21:15] <Crise> this is the reason why apexdc.net is running vanilla forum instead of discourse
[2020-02-09 21:15] <poy> sounds good, more modern than regular forums, more stackoverflow-ish but still has categories / etc.
[2020-02-09 21:16] <Kcchouette> > Ctrl+C to exit or wait 5 seconds to have a 2GB swapfile created.
[2020-02-09 21:16] <Crise> the phpbb is legacy from adcportal days, it has barely been used
[2020-02-09 21:16] <Kcchouette> indeed it created automatically swap file
[2020-02-09 21:16] <cologic> Just as long as whatever forum/discussion software has a database which can be backed up, given historical infrastructure instability.
[2020-02-09 21:17] <skupino> Crise Forum apexdc = scripts   https://vanillaforums.com/en/software/    ?
[2020-02-09 21:17] <Dexo> It also has scripts to migrate from phpBB, so we can probably migrate older topics as well.
[2020-02-09 21:17] <Crise> skupino: yes
[2020-02-09 21:17] <Kcchouette> I've said about forum, but website has been a bit outdated too
[2020-02-09 21:18] <skupino> Good
[2020-02-09 21:18] <Pretorian> The only annoying thing with the forum, which is why I've honestly shied away from it, was the immense spam it received. 
[2020-02-09 21:18] <Pretorian> Does the Discourse forum handle such things?
[2020-02-09 21:18] <Crise> Kcchouette: what is wrong with the website?
[2020-02-09 21:18] <Crise> other than it being made with PHP
[2020-02-09 21:18] <Dexo> We haven't noticed any spam on our instance. I think it's reasonably secure from that PoV.
[2020-02-09 21:19] <Crise> the way it works is actually pretty clean imho (admittedly biased opinion), seeing that it is backed by git
[2020-02-09 21:19] <Kcchouette> it contains outdated section/redirection/informations
[2020-02-09 21:19] <Kcchouette> and it's hard to understand how it works in a external point of view
[2020-02-09 21:20] <Crise> outdated sections?
[2020-02-09 21:20] <Crise> dcbase.org/docs/
[2020-02-09 21:20] <Kcchouette> https://hublist.dcbase.org/ for eg
[2020-02-09 21:21] <Crise> Kcchouette: if someone wants to do something with that please request access on gitlab
[2020-02-09 21:22] <Kcchouette> you know that i've created PR
[2020-02-09 21:22] <Kcchouette> 7 months ago
[2020-02-09 21:22] <Crise> those PRs were merged by Pretorian recently
[2020-02-09 21:22] <Kcchouette> yes, yesterday, and not all I think?
[2020-02-09 21:23] <Crise> I didn't do it because I wasn't the person who made the original code (i.e. I didn't know why the python dep was there)
[2020-02-09 21:23] <Pretorian> One isn't merged because I didn't have time to check if encoding was part of the ADC spec.
[2020-02-09 21:23] <Pretorian> But I see now it's the Hublist part, not ADC.
[2020-02-09 21:24] <Pretorian> Approved.
[2020-02-09 21:24] <Pretorian> In the future, you shouldn't need to do PR.
[2020-02-09 21:24] <Kcchouette> so to conclude, no change in forum?
[2020-02-09 21:24] <Dexo> Anyway, I think the website is fine as-is. But we definitely need a forum for other people to present their projects, discuss the spec or extensions, etc. We can keep a list of clients/hub/hublists/whatever there as well.
[2020-02-09 21:25] <Delion> Dexo: sounds good
[2020-02-09 21:25] <Pretorian> I have no problem with changing the forum, I just won't be the one maintaining it.
[2020-02-09 21:25] <Crise> Kcchouette: inconclusive, I would want something as easy to maintain as possible because I will be the person stuck doing it unless you are volunteering :)
[2020-02-09 21:25] <poy> wait, can't self-host discourse?
[2020-02-09 21:26] <Dexo> poy: you can
[2020-02-09 21:26] <Kcchouette> I can do update and so, yes Crise
[2020-02-09 21:26] <Crise> poy: you can but it is not obvious and requires docker
[2020-02-09 21:26] <poy> ah perfect so easy to deploy. :)
[2020-02-09 21:26] <Kcchouette> but we need to discuss about server/vps etc
[2020-02-09 21:26] <poy> we already have a server.
[2020-02-09 21:26] <Dexo> ...and try the migration on one of the DB dumps
[2020-02-09 21:27] <Crise> yes, which is not used... enough
[2020-02-09 21:27] <Kcchouette> we can have 1 server for forum at 25€+12€ of website as it is in php
[2020-02-09 21:27] <Kcchouette> instead of oe big server at 300€
[2020-02-09 21:27] <Pretorian> Need to host this hub somewhere.
[2020-02-09 21:27] <poy> this price includes DDoS protection which has been effective several times.
[2020-02-09 21:27] <cologic> My understanding is that is was partly DoS resistance?
[2020-02-09 21:28] <Pretorian> DDoS protection is unfortunately still a thing.
[2020-02-09 21:28] <Crise> yes the dedicated hardware is there as a buffer for attacks
[2020-02-09 21:28] <Kcchouette> oh, you have external ddos protection?
[2020-02-09 21:28] <cologic> There's also (?) CloudFlare for the website.
[2020-02-09 21:28] <Pretorian> OVH provides DDoS protection and CloudFlare acts as an additional buffer.
[2020-02-09 21:28] <Kcchouette> yes I have minimal too from ovh
[2020-02-09 21:29] <Crise> so the service provider doesn't need act/take preventative measures quickly because the server is more isolated from other customers
[2020-02-09 21:30] <Crise> if it was a VPS (which would be financially the sensible choice), a much smaller attack would take it down
[2020-02-09 21:30] <Dexo> I think it's reasonable to keep larger server for now. Discourse will definitely need more resources and additional protection is also nice to have.
[2020-02-09 21:30] <Kcchouette> I think it's a bit overthin but I've never had ddos attack
[2020-02-09 21:30] <Kcchouette> *over think
[2020-02-09 21:30] <cologic> And I can confirm that there have been multiple attempts, some closer to successful than others, at such DDoS attacks.
[2020-02-09 21:30] <poy> so Dexo/Kcchouette prepare some settings & deployment info then work with Crise to get it deployed at discourse.dcbase.org behind cloudflare?
[2020-02-09 21:31] <Pretorian> +1 for that
[2020-02-09 21:31] <Kcchouette> +1
[2020-02-09 21:31] <Dexo> We'd also like to get a DB dump so we can try the migration
[2020-02-09 21:31] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 21:31] <cologic> But I don't know by what margin it might be more capacity than necessary, or whether it might be possible to get similar DDoS resistance more cost-efficiently.
[2020-02-09 21:31] <Crise> +1, note that I currently have a day job so mainly available on weekends
[2020-02-09 21:31] <Delion> Babylon had several ddos attacks last years. OVH protection works good.
[2020-02-09 21:32] <Kcchouette> Delion: on vps?
[2020-02-09 21:32] <Kcchouette> basic protection?
[2020-02-09 21:32] <Delion> Kcchouette: VDS, basic
[2020-02-09 21:32] <Pretorian> So I think we need to continue.
[2020-02-09 21:32] <cologic> 4 votes for preparing/setting up discourse.dcbase.org behind CloudFlare
[2020-02-09 21:32] <Pretorian> Good.
[2020-02-09 21:33] <Pretorian> Dexo-2) ALPN implementation status.
[2020-02-09 21:33] <Pretorian> Dexo
[2020-02-09 21:33] <Dexo> ALPN was proposed to switch DC protocols on single (TLS-enabled) port was proposed last time. There was a lot of development and testing, mostly on my side.

Currently the following hubs support it:
- uhub (only advertices ADC)
- Verlihub (only advertices NMDC)
- GoHub (supports both)

The following clients support it:
- ncdc (full support)
- EiskaltDC++ (basic support, advertices the same one as in the URL scheme)
- FlylinkDC++ (basic support, -same-)

Things to discuss:
1) What is the right way to include this in the actual DC spec and get it reviewed?
2) DC++ is still considered "the DC client", and the change that adds ALPN was still not reviewed/merged. Can we make it happen?
[2020-02-09 21:33] <Kcchouette> we need to kill NMDC instead :D
[2020-02-09 21:34] <Dexo> Indeed, but it will take time to do correctly. ALPN is the only way it may happen, IMO.
[2020-02-09 21:34] <Pretorian> For 1) it's... well, when I can be poked? I'll check if after the meeting if time permits.
[2020-02-09 21:34] <Pretorian> Do you have a link to the latest text?
[2020-02-09 21:34] <Dexo> let me find the link
[2020-02-09 21:35] <Dexo> https://github.com/direct-connect/protocols/pull/1
[2020-02-09 21:36] <Delion> Kcchouette: Dexo 'killing' NMDC is not a way to go forward
[2020-02-09 21:36] <Dexo> There are missing pieces like C-C connectivity, but I think we must at least agree on the C-H bits.
[2020-02-09 21:36] <Kcchouette> (Im' going to be sometimes away, can you count Dexo votes as double if I don't vote?)
[2020-02-09 21:36] <Crise> Dexo: how is C-C missing in ADC?
[2020-02-09 21:36] <Delion> if uhub = ADC and Verli = NMDC what ALPN really means?..
[2020-02-09 21:36] <Dexo> Yeah, "killing" is not the right word. It's rather a smooth transition.
[2020-02-09 21:36] <cologic> Kcchouette: yeah, I don't understand NMDCS -- if one has to switch hub URLs, and most hub operators are going to want not to just proxy their hubs through generic TLS reverse proxies, and all clients not ancient support ADCS anyway...
[2020-02-09 21:37] <Dexo> Delion: really good question regarding uhub and Verli, let me elaborate
[2020-02-09 21:37] <Dexo> currently NMDC is stuck because there are no good ways to negoticate its version
[2020-02-09 21:38] <Dexo> with ALPN, NMDC runs over TLS and explicitly advertises NMDCv0, let's call it
[2020-02-09 21:38] <Pretorian> Direct link: <https://github.com/direct-connect/proto ... pn/alpn.md>
[2020-02-09 21:38] <Dexo> so we can iteratively update it to UTF8 and call NMDCv1, then make ADC-like framing of messages, call it NMDCv2, etc
[2020-02-09 21:39] <Dexo> so we can slowly migrate those old NMDC hubs this way without disrupting clients
[2020-02-09 21:39] <Delion> any current and future DC client that will support ALPN will definetly support ADC stuff
[2020-02-09 21:39] <Dexo> because the ALPN is always mutual or fallbacks to something (read: plain old NMDC)
[2020-02-09 21:40] <Dexo> Delion: sure; this is mostly a path for hubs and maybe for new protocols
[2020-02-09 21:41] <Delion> so why me as an ADCs hub owner should care about NMDC v.2 if all Babylon users are ADCs capable?
[2020-02-09 21:41] <Dexo> you should care about ADCv2, for example
[2020-02-09 21:41] <Dexo> ;)
[2020-02-09 21:41] <Delion> but I'm happy and busy with ADCs yet
[2020-02-09 21:42] <Delion> not with updating NMDC
[2020-02-09 21:42] <Pretorian> Not my intention to cut you off, but a) we can't really discuss the entirety of the proposal here (since we don't have time) and b) support in DC++ would basically be poy's decision, but not up for discussion here at this meeting.
[2020-02-09 21:42] <Crise> the reason why people should care about ADC and hate NMDC is that NMDC is an encoding nightmare :)
[2020-02-09 21:42] <Delion> I killed a top-3 world NMDC hub for that
[2020-02-09 21:42] <Dexo> Sure, but it has some flawas as well. That's another discussion though. The point is ALPN make the rotocol future-proof. Whatever the protocol is.
[2020-02-09 21:42] <Pretorian> Can we instead try and arrange a discussion tomorrow regarding ALPN?
[2020-02-09 21:43] <Dexo> Crise: +100
[2020-02-09 21:43] <Dexo> Pretorian: yes, would be awesome
[2020-02-09 21:43] <Pretorian> Crise: Doesn't matter if everyone uses the same encoding.
[2020-02-09 21:43] <Pretorian> Ok, good. I just want to move the meeting along, we still have a few meeting items left.
[2020-02-09 21:43] <Pretorian> Crise-1) The fate of additional scheduled meetings (quarterly or otherwise)
[2020-02-09 21:43] <Crise> They rarely do and how does a normal user know which to choose (if they even can)
[2020-02-09 21:44] <Delion> ...well, ALPN seems to be interesting idea anyway, but just not very useful this days.
[2020-02-09 21:44] <Pretorian> Crise
[2020-02-09 21:44] <Dexo> Delion: let's discuss tomorrow
[2020-02-09 21:44] <Delion> Dexo: ok ok
[2020-02-09 21:44] <Crise> Re Crise-1: should I keep the text about additional meetings in official documents and website... if so in what form?
[2020-02-09 21:45] <Dexo> Crise: Maybe off-topic, but I hope those meeting can be replaced by async communication on the new forum
[2020-02-09 21:45] <Crise> otherwise see previous annual meeting for for and against additional meetings
[2020-02-09 21:45] <Pretorian> As we have more members, it may actually be the case that people want to call another meeting and that meetings are kept more often.
[2020-02-09 21:45] <Delion> Why just not ask for e-mails and not send notifications for DCNF members?
[2020-02-09 21:45] <cologic> Yeah, the problem in the past has been insufficient interest in coordinated meetings; that might be changing.
[2020-02-09 21:47] <Pretorian> So it's important to realize that there are only one required organization meetings: this one, the annual one.
[2020-02-09 21:47] <Kcchouette> >send notifications for DCNF members
Some members won't even reply or watch their email sadly
[2020-02-09 21:47] * Pretorian hides
[2020-02-09 21:47] <Crise> so I will keep something in? Quarterly or when called for? if the latter what is the procedure for calling a meeting....
[2020-02-09 21:48] <Delion> Kcchouette: so should they keep an eye on this hub topic?..
[2020-02-09 21:48] <Crise> minimum number of discussion points? participants? etc.
[2020-02-09 21:48] <Delion> Kcchouette: *better
[2020-02-09 21:49] <Pretorian> Preferably post meeting request on the forum?
[2020-02-09 21:49] <Pretorian> And update the hub topic
[2020-02-09 21:49] <Delion> Pretorian: that's better
[2020-02-09 21:50] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 21:50] <Crise> Do I have the user rights to send mass/group PM's here? (do we have user groups?) or update the topic... I believe for topic I have been met with message that it has been set by someone with higher rights than me?
[2020-02-09 21:50] <Pretorian> Obviously if you have a topic in mind, post that, otherwise it could simply be a "I want to check up on status of others"
[2020-02-09 21:51] <Crise> +1 for forums, so they will be used... but realistically people are most present on this hub
[2020-02-09 21:51] <Crise> (well most people)
[2020-02-09 21:51] <Pretorian> Well, anyone in the board should definitely have the ability to set topic.
[2020-02-09 21:51] <Dexo> Hub is unreliable, unfortunately
[2020-02-09 21:51] <Crise> yes it is but forums do require users to go to them as well
[2020-02-09 21:51] <Delion> Telegram channel? xD
[2020-02-09 21:52] <Kcchouette> no
[2020-02-09 21:52] <Crise> whereas people are already here
[2020-02-09 21:52] <Delion> I knew you will say that)
[2020-02-09 21:53] <Dexo> I think Hub+forum is a good balance. You either online or will check periodically for new posts.
[2020-02-09 21:53] <Delion> and how often will we meet?
[2020-02-09 21:53] <Pretorian> Any more often than one a month is too often.
[2020-02-09 21:54] <Pretorian> So call for a meeting on the forum and change topic here or post a request here.
[2020-02-09 21:54] <Crise> I agree and in previous years once a month proved too frequent hence why we tried and failed with the quarterly meetings last year
[2020-02-09 21:54] <Delion> posting a request here or on the forums works for me
[2020-02-09 21:55] <Pretorian> If you don't have the permission to set topic, we can probably make sure do you -- or someone else will do it for you.
[2020-02-09 21:55] <Delion> both online and offline ways
[2020-02-09 21:55] <Crise> Looks like we will go with that, do we want a formal decision on this matter (i.e. a vote?)
[2020-02-09 21:55] <Pretorian> Seems all are in agreement.
[2020-02-09 21:55] <Pretorian> Or if cologic wants to count ;)
[2020-02-09 21:56] <cologic> Okay, seems reasonable to treat this as a kind of vote.
[2020-02-09 21:56] <Delion> we better vote
[2020-02-09 21:56] <poy> fine by me.
[2020-02-09 21:56] <cologic> But above people were sometimes unclear for discussion-ambiguity purposes.
[2020-02-09 21:57] <Crise> +1 (for hub and forums, no email since we don't have a good list, sans board)
[2020-02-09 21:57] <Pretorian> Organization meetings: request a meeting by posting on the forum and here on the hub. The last meeting should be at least one month ago.
[2020-02-09 21:57] <Dexo> +1
[2020-02-09 21:57] <poy> +1
[2020-02-09 21:57] <Crise> +1
[2020-02-09 21:58] <Pretorian> Preferably a few days in advance...
[2020-02-09 21:58] <Delion> Pretorian: +1
[2020-02-09 21:58] <cologic> Dexo, poy, Crise -- are you +1'ing Pretorian or Crise, and are you distinguishin between the should-be-one-month-ago-or-not criterion?
[2020-02-09 21:58] <Crise> Pretorian: +1, I'd say at least a week (unless urgent)
[2020-02-09 21:58] <Pretorian> A week is fair, yeah
[2020-02-09 21:59] <poy> my +1 was for Pretorian with 1-month condition.
[2020-02-09 21:59] <Dexo> week is better, definitely
[2020-02-09 21:59] <Dexo> but I mean for discussing specific issues, e.g. spec
[2020-02-09 21:59] <Crise> (sorry to make this confusing my opinion lines with Pretorian here)
[2020-02-09 21:59] <Dexo> month sounds reasonable for global meetings
[2020-02-09 22:00] <Delion> week in advance is ok as for me
[2020-02-09 22:00] <cologic> +1 for Pretorian's proposal
[2020-02-09 22:00] <Pretorian> #Prop 2: Organization meetings: request a meeting by posting on the forum and here on the hub. The last meeting should be at least one month ago. The request time should be at least one week in advance
[2020-02-09 22:00] <Crise> ++1
[2020-02-09 22:00] <Delion> Pretorian: +1
[2020-02-09 22:00] <cologic> 6 votes for requesting meetings by posting on the forum and here on the hub, with the last meeting being at least one month prior
[2020-02-09 22:00] <Pretorian> Don't need to call four meetings in a month...
[2020-02-09 22:00] <cologic> 7 votes
[2020-02-09 22:00] <Pretorian> I think we can manage it, let's move on.
[2020-02-09 22:00] <Pretorian> Crise-2) Hub (this one) certificate
[2020-02-09 22:01] <Pretorian> Crise
[2020-02-09 22:01] <Delion> aha, an interesting topic
[2020-02-09 22:01] <Kcchouette> yes, renew it with my patch
[2020-02-09 22:01] <Crise> Just an announcement that the Keyprint for this hub will change at indeterminate point in near future and the Motd will list both new and old keyprints when it happens)
[2020-02-09 22:01] <poy> cert renewal is always tricky, especially with pinning. :D
[2020-02-09 22:02] <Delion> be sure to give a link to download it
[2020-02-09 22:02] <Delion> the. crt file itself
[2020-02-09 22:02] <Delion> so Hades will be able to upload it to his hublist
[2020-02-09 22:03] <Crise> I will do it at some point, time permitting if someone else wants to do it (poy?) please do
[2020-02-09 22:03] <Crise> but it needs to be announced somehow is the point
[2020-02-09 22:03] <poy> I can help with the adchpp part but not with the cert itself.
[2020-02-09 22:04] <Delion> Hades could help, he is running adch++ hub too
[2020-02-09 22:04] <Delion> he playes with certs once
[2020-02-09 22:05] <Pretorian> Announce on the topic a day or so in advance, and post a note in the MOTD and on the forum
[2020-02-09 22:05] <Delion> *played
[2020-02-09 22:05] <Crise> I can generate the cert it will still be self signed, just with larger key size and validity period... a private DC specific CA seems overkill unless we have TLS specialist willing to do it
[2020-02-09 22:05] <Kcchouette> Crise: like I said, renew it, but using my patch here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/adchpp/+bug/1850053
[2020-02-09 22:05] <Kcchouette> (or more ofc)
[2020-02-09 22:05] <cologic> Kcchouette: yes that was committed to ADCH++ a couple of weeks ago.
[2020-02-09 22:06] <Crise> note: if I have to do it, earliest it can happen is next weekend, I'll be busy with work during the week and org documents tonight
[2020-02-09 22:06] <poy> painless certificate renewal is a nice improvement to think about in the future... chaining certs / pinning only roots / automating CSRs maybe...
[2020-02-09 22:07] <Delion> poy: I dont know any DC client that works with certs chains
[2020-02-09 22:07] <Crise> I am not enough of an ssl wizard for all of that
[2020-02-09 22:07] <Crise> Delion: DC++ does
[2020-02-09 22:08] <Delion> Crise: huh?
[2020-02-09 22:08] <Crise> with regards to Keyprint, since I hacked a patch for it ages ago with the guy that wrote the original keyp draft
[2020-02-09 22:08] <Crise> (errant enter key)
[2020-02-09 22:09] <Kcchouette> > painless certificate renewal is a nice improvement to think about in the future...
[2020-02-09 22:09] <Kcchouette> Not sure it exists
[2020-02-09 22:10] <poy> precisely, I'm hoping crypto experts can help us make that happen. :) this will be a recurrent topic since certificates do expire.
[2020-02-09 22:10] <Crise> and to clarify I am not one such expert I can make due, but only to a point
[2020-02-09 22:10] <Delion> hm. I made that test about a year ago with some good certificate... what I remember, AiDC++ failed to work with cert chain
[2020-02-09 22:11] <Pretorian> Just have another parameter, e.g. "KN" for "Next keyprint" and serve that a few times
[2020-02-09 22:11] <Delion> so I refused to go further
[2020-02-09 22:11] <Pretorian> Anyway.
[2020-02-09 22:11] <Crise> sadly the smoke tests I used to test my patch for DC++ are long since gone and they were not set up by me
[2020-02-09 22:11] <poy> good idea Pretorian. ^^
[2020-02-09 22:11] <Pretorian> I'm not sure we have more to discuss here.
[2020-02-09 22:12] <Pretorian> Crise/poy, notify here in the hub when the change is going to happen
[2020-02-09 22:12] <Kcchouette> and by email too
[2020-02-09 22:12] <Pretorian> Let's move on.
[2020-02-09 22:12] <Crise> we have no list of such emails
[2020-02-09 22:12] <cologic> (So far not seeing a vote here one way or another.)
[2020-02-09 22:12] <Crise> there is no need for a vote
[2020-02-09 22:12] <Delion> yepp.
[2020-02-09 22:13] <Pretorian> poy-1) Setting up a forge for current projects.
[2020-02-09 22:13] <Pretorian> poy
[2020-02-09 22:13] * Dexo wondering what "forge" is referring to specifically
[2020-02-09 22:14] <Pretorian> For reference, the following are DCNF projects <dcbase.org/projects>
[2020-02-09 22:14] <poy> last time I promised I'd set up kallithea but haven't gotten around to that. nowadays rhodecode is good again and heptapod <https://heptapod.net/> (gitlab fork with mercurial support) has my interest - using it at my company atm.
[2020-02-09 22:14] <Crise> I am against anything that will increase manual maintenance overhead by default, but otherwise I am all for this idea (presume forge refers to alternative/mirror for SF like services)
[2020-02-09 22:14] <poy>  this is still essentially a TODO I had from last time, wanted to mention it again.
[2020-02-09 22:15] <Pretorian> Ok, more or less a personal TODO for yourself then, I guess. ;)
[2020-02-09 22:15] <poy> Crise: I was thinking of a self-hosted forge.
[2020-02-09 22:15] <Crise> self-hosted is fine if it is managed by someone (not me)
[2020-02-09 22:16] <poy> :)
[2020-02-09 22:16] <Crise> also it has to work with cloudflare
[2020-02-09 22:16] <Pretorian> At the moment with Gitlab things work kinda fine (assuming you know what you're doing).
[2020-02-09 22:16] <Crise> or cloudflare will become less useful
[2020-02-09 22:16] <Kcchouette> can't we stay on gitlab? these kind of service are more important than a forum
[2020-02-09 22:16] <Dexo> Sorry, but why aren't we using public code hosting providers instead? It's definitely less maintanence and better publicity (which is good for incoming PRs and fixes).
[2020-02-09 22:16] <Kcchouette> for me
[2020-02-09 22:17] <Crise> I am gitlab fan myself, but I know poy likes mercurial :)
[2020-02-09 22:17] * Dexo agrees with Kcchouette
[2020-02-09 22:17] <Kcchouette> And moreover ou already have dcnf group on gitlab
[2020-02-09 22:17] <poy> well you have gitlab+mercurial there... the company behind heptapod is actually considering hosting for others but won't happen until quite a while...
[2020-02-09 22:18] <Kcchouette> Dexo and I have done the same on github :D but I want mine merge with official (my hublist)
[2020-02-09 22:18] <Crise> git is the popular choice... even if mercurial may be better
[2020-02-09 22:18] <poy> I know git is less powerful than mercurial but given the successes & communities github / gitlab have, I wouldn't mind moving there too...
[2020-02-09 22:18] <Dexo> I agree. PErsonal tools is one thing, but Git is overwhelmingly more popular nowadays.
[2020-02-09 22:18] <Crise> the only mercurial repo I have used personal or professional, so far, is of dcpp
[2020-02-09 22:19] <Kcchouette> we already have a good group on gitlab, we just need to use it; even creat ticket to trackt thing
[2020-02-09 22:19] <Crise> I am version control agnostic... I know anything from CVS to Subversion to Git and Mercurial
[2020-02-09 22:20] <Pretorian> I think the takeaway here is: poy if you want to tinker with Kallithea etc that's fine, just that it may not be completely worthwhile.
[2020-02-09 22:20] <Pretorian> Clearcase represent!
[2020-02-09 22:20] <Pretorian> lol
[2020-02-09 22:20] <poy> color me convinced, I'll abandon this and focus on converting our projects to git. :)
[2020-02-09 22:20] <Dexo> thanks :)
[2020-02-09 22:21] <poy> the nifty features mercurial has over git (pushed cset editing) we aren't even using anyway.
[2020-02-09 22:21] <Pretorian> (Clearcase's dynamic views were amazing and you can't convince me otherwise)
[2020-02-09 22:21] <Crise> (I will need to google this mystery VCS)
[2020-02-09 22:21] <Kcchouette> duckduckgo* :D
[2020-02-09 22:22] <Crise> fine
[2020-02-09 22:22] <Pretorian> All right, let's move on
[2020-02-09 22:22] <Pretorian> Dexo-3) Protocol spec hosting, and optionally hosting of other projects.
[2020-02-09 22:22] <Pretorian> Dexo
[2020-02-09 22:22] <Dexo> There were multiple places for the spec previously, as far as I know
[2020-02-09 22:22] <Dexo> Now we have at least one more: the fork I used for the proposals and fixing the NMDC spec to follow real-word implementations (since no one was really reviewing the proposals :P).
[2020-02-09 22:23] <Dexo> I wanted to discuss where is the canonical place for those and how I can backport NMDC clarifications from my fork
[2020-02-09 22:23] <Crise> The protocol spec migration is finished but not official, needs to be checked for errors, Pretorian? (adc.dcbase.org), NMDC is in limbo but planned
[2020-02-09 22:23] <poy> for NMDC we have <https://nmdc.sourceforge.io/>.
[2020-02-09 22:23] <Pretorian> I think ADC is done, but needs to be checked for errors in the pages.
[2020-02-09 22:23] <Pretorian> Should be correct otherwise.
[2020-02-09 22:24] <Dexo> Also to clarify, I'm mostly speaking about dev-oriented hosting, e.g. Gitlab. Is there a single place where we can make all the spec updates already? Is it automatically deployed?
[2020-02-09 22:24] <Pretorian> Both ADC and NDMC should/will be moved to Gitlab, i.e. adc.dcbase.org and nmdc.dcbase.org
[2020-02-09 22:24] <Crise> any volunteers? (it has some svn references still that need fixing IIRC)
[2020-02-09 22:24] <Dexo> I actually converted the history for those in the fork
[2020-02-09 22:24] <Crise> it = adc.dcbase.org
[2020-02-09 22:24] <poy> gitlab too for these specs, sounds good.
[2020-02-09 22:25] <Pretorian> <https://gitlab.com/dcnf/adc-web> will automatically update adc.dcbase.org
[2020-02-09 22:25] <Pretorian> I guess the project page at SourceForge should be changed to point to adc/nmdc.dcbase.org
[2020-02-09 22:25] <Pretorian> So Gitlab is the place to make those changes I guess.
[2020-02-09 22:26] <Crise> please read (at least some of) www.dcbase.org/docs/ if you want to get involved
[2020-02-09 22:26] <Crise> it will explain how the content is rendered
[2020-02-09 22:26] <Dexo> So what are the action items then? ADC is ready, so I only need to push those NMDC changes (and the converted commit history)?
[2020-02-09 22:26] <Dexo> Crise: OK, will check it out.
[2020-02-09 22:27] <Pretorian> In the past there really haven't been a need to have merging etc done, I've just done all of that manually myself.
[2020-02-09 22:27] <Crise> ADC is ready, sans error checking, maybe co-ordinate the ADC switch with ALPN if relevant for ADC spec release
[2020-02-09 22:28] <Pretorian> For ADC it's really only the extension document that needs to be changed.
[2020-02-09 22:28] <Crise> the front matter of the main spec may have svn references
[2020-02-09 22:28] <Dexo> This is actually a point why I merged both to the same repo: ALPN describes how DC may work across protocols.
[2020-02-09 22:30] <poy> interesting point. :D
[2020-02-09 22:30] <Crise> I am indifferent about same vs different repo, but they should be accessible by their discreet urls (different repos is what the dcbase.org system assumes for subprojects though)
[2020-02-09 22:31] <Crise> NMDC is not going to be updated that much if me or Pretorian have anything to say about it I presume :)
[2020-02-09 22:31] <Dexo> But what if a few year down the road we will define a different protocol? Will it be the third URL? Maybe it's better to have spec.dcbase.org?
[2020-02-09 22:31] <Pretorian> NMDC is "I have given up, I don't care at this point, update away"
[2020-02-09 22:31] <Crise> (unless someone really wants to resurrect that dinosaur and deal with all its package)
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Pretorian> If someone invents a third DC protocol, just shoot me.
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Dexo> Crise: You may have nothing to say, but implementations in the wild do :)
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Kcchouette> we need it, with QUIC :D
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Pretorian> (There were a few proposals in the early days)
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Crise> Dexo: well specs should not follow implementations, that premise is flawed
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Dexo> +1 for QUIC, but that's a different story :D
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Crise> it is supposed to be the other way around that is what spec is
[2020-02-09 22:32] <Dexo> Sure, but it's not even correct/complete
[2020-02-09 22:33] <Pretorian> I technically don't mind a "spec.dcbase.org", just that I'd like the ADC and NMDC portions separated.
[2020-02-09 22:33] <Pretorian> The former is "some thought were given to it" and the latter is "this looks like fun, let's do that"
[2020-02-09 22:33] <Dexo> Since it was frozen, you cannot really speak NMDC without obeying those new quirks in the implementations.
[2020-02-09 22:33] <Crise> Dexo; there is no NMDC spec, it is reverse engineered from the original old protocol and updated by arne as he saw fit
[2020-02-09 22:34] <Pretorian> So Dexo, I'm not sure what the take away here is. 
[2020-02-09 22:34] <Pretorian> Merge requests towards the protocols should go in their respective projects at Gitlab.
[2020-02-09 22:34] <Dexo> Crise: that's a good point; so now we can define what happened with it, right? it may not be called "spec" per se, but at least I see a value of documenting all the crap that accumulated to into it :D
[2020-02-09 22:34] <Crise> you can't retrofit a spec when no-one can agree on anything... which is why ADC became a thing
[2020-02-09 22:34] <Crise> fair
[2020-02-09 22:35] <Pretorian> Kinda what I begun doing with the NMDC project. It was "oh well, might as well document it"
[2020-02-09 22:35] <Crise> I am being a bit pedantic on purpose
[2020-02-09 22:35] <Pretorian> I know ALPN is quite large, so I will have to consider how it is going to go in the official pages when/if it's included.
[2020-02-09 22:36] <Crise> but when does the documentation stop... it is not viable to keep expanding it if there are conflicts of intrest it will be just a wiki then
[2020-02-09 22:36] <Pretorian> E.g., the coding parts aren't really useful in the specification.
[2020-02-09 22:36] <Pretorian> (Useful in terms of "shouldn't be needed")
[2020-02-09 22:37] <Crise> Lock2Key would like a word :P, since we are talking about both protocols here 
[2020-02-09 22:37] <Dexo> Crise: I think NMDC won't be really undated. So I want to document everything that's already there (according to implementations in the wild) and freeze it for good.
[2020-02-09 22:37] <Pretorian> Lock2Key doesn't exist in ADC?
[2020-02-09 22:38] <Pretorian> Dexo: Yes, that was also my intention with the NMDC project.
[2020-02-09 22:38] <Crise> no thankfully not
[2020-02-09 22:38] <Pretorian> Anyway, can we move on?
[2020-02-09 22:38] <Crise> yes
[2020-02-09 22:38] <Dexo> Pretorian: Can you please then consider the diff in the repo I linked earlier?
[2020-02-09 22:38] <Dexo> OK, so basically:
- Gitlab is the place to host the specs.
- We keep protocols separated for now, but consider spec.dcbase.org if they become too entangled.
[2020-02-09 22:39] <Pretorian> So my intention was to basically look at just <https://github.com/direct-connect/proto ... pn/alpn.md>
[2020-02-09 22:39] <Crise> wouldn't alpn.dcbase.org also be an option?
[2020-02-09 22:40] <Crise> because it is for now the only part that involves both (and a larger whole)
[2020-02-09 22:40] <Dexo> That's not really a protocol, it only shows how peers can negotiate any other protocol over TLS.
[2020-02-09 22:40] <Crise> fair
[2020-02-09 22:40] <Dexo> So I don't think it deserves a separate subdomain. That's why I was thinking about spec.* subdomain.
[2020-02-09 22:40] <Pretorian> <https://github.com/direct-connect/proto ... bacb867018>
[2020-02-09 22:41] <Pretorian> That's the full diff
[2020-02-09 22:41] <Dexo> Pretorian: https://github.com/direct-connect/proto ... dc/nmdc.md
[2020-02-09 22:41] <Pretorian> Ok, we're talking about different things.
[2020-02-09 22:41] <Dexo> That's the NMDC diff. Contains some clarifications that I was talking about.
[2020-02-09 22:41] <Pretorian> Ok, now I know.
[2020-02-09 22:42] <Pretorian> That I can probably merge/copy right in.
[2020-02-09 22:42] <Pretorian> Like I said, don't really care about the NMDC part as long as it is factually what clients/hubs do.
[2020-02-09 22:42] <Pretorian> So, let's move on.
[2020-02-09 22:42] <Pretorian> Crise-3) dedicated emails for organization business... as opposed to forwarding
[2020-02-09 22:42] <Pretorian> Crise
[2020-02-09 22:43] <Crise> as you all know right now [email protected] or other addresses of that kind are forwarders to personal emails
[2020-02-09 22:43] <Crise> I have previously shared my view on that
[2020-02-09 22:43] <Kcchouette> which is?
[2020-02-09 22:44] <Crise> no need to rehash it, but basically I think organization emails should not stick around in personal emails in the event that people quit the organization or it disolves... this is a GDPR nightmare
[2020-02-09 22:45] <Crise> which makes the current approach problematic
[2020-02-09 22:45] <Kcchouette> don't forward works like list?
[2020-02-09 22:45] <cologic> That's a reasonable point.
[2020-02-09 22:45] <Pretorian> Indeed, that is an issue.
[2020-02-09 22:45] <Crise> the gsuite for non-profits was my first no cost solution, but it has other issues
[2020-02-09 22:46] <poy> technical issues or the ethical ones I brought up last time?
[2020-02-09 22:46] <Crise> ethical mainly
[2020-02-09 22:46] <Crise> and google having tendecy to shutter stuff when they feel like it
[2020-02-09 22:46] <Kcchouette> I don't follow the discussion
[2020-02-09 22:47] <Kcchouette> how gsuite fixs the problem?
[2020-02-09 22:47] <Kcchouette> isn't it just another email system?
[2020-02-09 22:47] <Crise> google offers GSuite free for non-profits for us through techsoup sverige
[2020-02-09 22:47] <Crise> it is but right now there is no "system"
[2020-02-09 22:47] <Kcchouette> yes, but if I send an email to gsuite email
[2020-02-09 22:47] <Kcchouette> how can Dexo received it?
[2020-02-09 22:48] <Kcchouette> it works with forwarding too, isn't it?
[2020-02-09 22:49] <Crise> the important bit is we need something, preferrably free, considering the organizations current financials and dependency on donations... that resolves the above issue (re GDPR and control over the organization data, in the event we need to remove it)
[2020-02-09 22:49] <poy> this is our previous discussion for reference: <https://pastebin.com/R9VvHw0R>
[2020-02-09 22:49] <Pretorian> Presumably, a service where one logs into the mail server? 
[2020-02-09 22:49] <Crise> because the paypal emails that are currently forwarded to every (old) board members emails do contain private information
[2020-02-09 22:50] <Kcchouette> all the association we have in France, we use @domain redirecting to personal email
[2020-02-09 22:50] <cologic> Kcchouette: and that's GDPR-compliant?
[2020-02-09 22:50] <Kcchouette> it's why I'm asking it here xD
[2020-02-09 22:50] <Crise> and if that association recieves a GDPR request for correspondence or data removal?
[2020-02-09 22:50] <Kcchouette> but if you quit the association, we remove the forward and done
[2020-02-09 22:51] <Crise> and all the old emails?
[2020-02-09 22:51] <Kcchouette> I don't know
[2020-02-09 22:51] <Kcchouette> but all emails are not on the @domain
[2020-02-09 22:51] <Kcchouette> as they are redirected
[2020-02-09 22:51] <Crise> this in my eyes is a privacy issue
[2020-02-09 22:52] <Pretorian> Yeah, clear GDPR nightmare.
[2020-02-09 22:52] <Crise> so this is call for solutions, the email is the important part anything else is icing on the cake
[2020-02-09 22:52] <Pretorian> I did register [email protected] (I think)
[2020-02-09 22:52] <poy> since I haven't followed through with FSF contacts / etc and don't want these anti-google issues to be a blocker here, I'm very fine with using Google Suite if it improves the situation.
[2020-02-09 22:53] <Pretorian> (or [email protected], can't remember)
[2020-02-09 22:53] <cologic> It does seem like a must-deal-with-or-at-least-verify/confirm-is-GDPR-compatible priority, rather than something which can be perpetually put off.
[2020-02-09 22:53] <Pretorian> Last time I contacted Techsoup Sverige they had to book a telephone call and stuff and I really didn't have time for that.
[2020-02-09 22:53] <Crise> ps: I moved away from gmail so the forward should be updated... and I have no access to loopia IIRC
[2020-02-09 22:54] <Pretorian> Can people just PM me their latest email (if I haven't emailed you in the past month or so)?
[2020-02-09 22:54] <poy> I would guess most people simply use shared email boxes / webmail for these things...
[2020-02-09 22:55] <Pretorian> And I'll update Loopia.
[2020-02-09 22:55] <Crise> so another reason why I am bringing this up is because the org mails for me are no going to my "spam"/throwaway email
[2020-02-09 22:55] <Kcchouette> > most people simply use shared email boxes
[2020-02-09 22:55] <Kcchouette> you need verification somatimes
[2020-02-09 22:55] <Crise> define shared?
[2020-02-09 22:55] <Kcchouette> *somtimes
[2020-02-09 22:55] <Crise> as in shared username and password?
[2020-02-09 22:55] <poy> yes. :P
[2020-02-09 22:56] <Pretorian> Oh right checked my email, last time I contacted Techsoup I needed to provide a yearly protocol meeting -- which I didn't have because it hadn't been completed. 
[2020-02-09 22:57] <Crise> it has been completed for a year pending protocol adjustment, but now it is out of date as of the end of this meeting
[2020-02-09 22:57] <Pretorian> So maybe if this protocol is done we can get Techsoup access.
[2020-02-09 22:58] <Kcchouette> but about emails
[2020-02-09 22:58] <Kcchouette> what is the need of it?
[2020-02-09 22:58] <Kcchouette> paypal and?
[2020-02-09 22:58] <Pretorian> Government.
[2020-02-09 22:58] <Kcchouette> maybe we can d it through gitlab repo?
[2020-02-09 22:58] <Kcchouette> *do
[2020-02-09 22:58] <Kcchouette> and ticket
[2020-02-09 22:59] <Pretorian> What? 
[2020-02-09 22:59] <Crise> I doubt goverment qualifies git as a point of contact
[2020-02-09 22:59] <Pretorian> The government need to have an email that they can use (they have never used it but still).
[2020-02-09 22:59] <Kcchouette> oh, government of sweden
[2020-02-09 22:59] <Pretorian> Yes.
[2020-02-09 23:00] <Kcchouette> I thought "governing the organization"
[2020-02-09 23:00] <Kcchouette> so the private email of you should be enough :D
[2020-02-09 23:00] <Crise> basically the organization can't legally exist without a point of contact e.g. GDPR also needs a privacy contact
[2020-02-09 23:01] <Pretorian> All documents sent to government contains the org's mail and the "submitee"'s mail (mine).
[2020-02-09 23:01] <Crise> the board should be able to respond to contacts without depending on Pretorian
[2020-02-09 23:01] <Pretorian> The only thing I am needed (or should be needed) for is government stuff.
[2020-02-09 23:01] <Pretorian> As I'm the 'owner' of the organization.
[2020-02-09 23:02] <Crise> because legally we may be obligated to respond when Pretorian is not available for example (such as GDPR request)
[2020-02-09 23:02] <Pretorian> Luckily we don't really record... anything at all 
[2020-02-09 23:02] <Kcchouette> gdpr can come for forum and hub
[2020-02-09 23:02] <Pretorian> Except those Paypal mails
[2020-02-09 23:03] <Kcchouette> so in these two situation the board can't do anything
[2020-02-09 23:03] <Kcchouette> only some of you (Crise?) and Pretorian for contact about organization
[2020-02-09 23:04] <Crise> emails are also helpful to bring Pretorian and me out of lurker mode, see the organization and scheduling of this meeting and hub cert issue
[2020-02-09 23:04] * Pretorian scurries under my rock
[2020-02-09 23:06] <Kcchouette> like I said, you can use mailbox.org, 12€ per year
[2020-02-09 23:06] <Crise> above may also apply to cologic and poy respectively :)
[2020-02-09 23:08] <Pretorian> Anyway, I'd suggest that we continue with Techsoup, and see if GSuite works to suit our needs.
[2020-02-09 23:08] <Pretorian> Alternatively we just use the shared Google one.
[2020-02-09 23:09] <Crise> it will at least give us organization level control over mailboxes (it may be google, but alternatives are too costly... protonmail is cool but the organization plan costs a pretty penny)
[2020-02-09 23:10] <skupino> HO
[2020-02-09 23:10] <skupino> since I have to go to sleep (because sometimes I also sleep) and tomorrow we work, when can I ask to insert my hublist on apexdc dcplusplus and airdc?
[2020-02-09 23:10] <Pretorian> No, bye
[2020-02-09 23:11] <Pretorian> All right
[2020-02-09 23:11] <Pretorian> Let's move on.
[2020-02-09 23:11] <skupino> do I deserve a kick?
[2020-02-09 23:12] <Pretorian> Yes, don't interupt the meeting.
[2020-02-09 23:12] <Pretorian> We are nearly done.
[2020-02-09 23:12] <Pretorian> That was the last item.
[2020-02-09 23:12] <skupino> [22:11:51] <Pretorian> Yes, don't interupt the meeting.             OK
[2020-02-09 23:12] <Pretorian> Does anyone have any additional items to this year's annual meeting?
[2020-02-09 23:12] <cologic> I do not.
[2020-02-09 23:12] <Pretorian> I do not.
[2020-02-09 23:13] <poy>  nothing else to add.
[2020-02-09 23:13] <Delion> me not
[2020-02-09 23:13] <Kcchouette> me not
[2020-02-09 23:13] <Dexo> same
[2020-02-09 23:13] <Crise> We discussed everything, now lets see if stuff happens :)
[2020-02-09 23:13] <Pretorian> Great. 
[2020-02-09 23:13] <Kcchouette> I hope too
[2020-02-09 23:13] <Pretorian> This annual meeting can be concluded. Next annual meeting will be announced in December. Thank you all.
[2020-02-09 23:14] <Pretorian> This will conclude the 2020-02-09 annual meeting of DCNF, thank you all.
[2020-02-09 23:14] <Pretorian> <end>